Full Tracks vs. Loop Parts
on Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 6:13pm
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Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 6:13pm

When running loops in worship, do you tend to run tracks with the complete arrangement pre-set? Or run them in separate file parts (Verse, Pre-Chorus, Chorus) ?

I do it both ways but typically prefer to run them in separate parts to allow for spontaneity...although full tracks are easier :)

Would love to hear your thoughts on this and how you arrange your sets.

Sunday, May 29, 2011 - 9:47pm
For our worship team it depends on the song and the structure of the song, most of the time i will cut up the loops in Reason intro/verse/chorus etc... If the song has alot of complicated parts or parts of the song that are not very consistent we tend to use a whole track. Its easy to run the fast songs as a whole track cause they tend to be kind of our openers and we typically always play them the same. So most of the songs that are cut up are our slow songs, they tend to be the songs that we can flow in. So most of the time our fast songs are straight tracks and our slow songs are cut up Pad/Intro/Verse/Chorus/Bridge. Hope that helps
Monday, May 30, 2011 - 12:25pm
For the past 4 years I've traveled with a Worship group from Liberty University and we've used Digital Performer because that's what the school had already purchased and put on the computers. So we used the "complete arrangement, hit play and run with it" method. But for some of the smaller gigs that I've done with friends, I used Ableton (since that's what I track all my stuff into anyway) and separate the files into verse, chorus, bridge, etc. However, since there are a lot of places with full orchestras (churches and stuff) I've seen them set up Ableton with each master track being a different tempo, loading in every drum loop on every track, firing all of them simultaneously, and using a Trigger Finger to fade in the loops you want at certain points of the song.
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Monday, May 30, 2011 - 4:19pm

yeah, that's really interesting. i'm starting to really re-think why exactly I cut up the songs into individual pieces. I like to say that I prefer the spontaneous option, however --- I wonder how often I actually do songs that much different each time I play them? I find that if I change up a song, it's usually at the end of the song anyways... so it might just be easier to run a full track and not even have to bother switching between the individual parts. 

however, if the band gets off of the track... you are doomed. but if the band gets off individual loops, you can always re-fire them. 

In the end, I'm still leaning towards individual song elements. I'll have to check into digital performer... sounds interesting.

Monday, May 30, 2011 - 6:09pm
Yeah... that's the only problem with Digital Performer, because when you do get off click, the world ends. I like the spontaneity of the individual parts method. But I mean, I guess it really depends on what you're doing. Apparently Digital Performer can be synced with lighting rigs and video stuff so you can have everything fire at once from a single spot. If you're a huge band like U2 or something I can see how this would be of benefit... but it's almost like bringing a nuke to a fist fight in some cases.
Tuesday, May 31, 2011 - 12:20am
I enjoy Ableton Live and probably would never want "all or nothing": mixes.... I like having the individual tracks / individual sections approach. Question to a previous poster: what is a "Trigger Finger" do you have any info? Is it like what I would call the "Hot Hand" product? http://www.sourceaudio.net/products/hothand/midi_exp.php
Tuesday, May 31, 2011 - 10:13am
The Trigger Finger is a midi controller. When you go into the midi assigning view in Ableton you can assign each of the 16 pads to a button so you can fire different parts of the song from it. They also have faders that you can assign to different things so you can fade loops in and out. They're pretty nifty little devices. http://www.amazon.com/M-Audio-Trigger-Finger-Control-Surface/dp/B000800B6U
Tuesday, May 31, 2011 - 10:27am

I didn't see a question anywhere in the thread asking what a Trigger Finger is, but there is an actual piece of hardware called a Trigger Finger that was made by M-Audio. 

Regarding your all or nothing mixes: Get the Reason file and you can modify it to your hearts content. wink

Tuesday, May 31, 2011 - 12:49pm
Matt even thought you feel you use the songs more like a track cant you still cut them up and have ableton play the parts in order until you decide to change the order?
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Tuesday, May 31, 2011 - 4:51pm

defnitely! recently, i've been just adding markers in arrangement view and assigning them to midi controls. works like a charm.

Wednesday, June 1, 2011 - 8:28am
markers? you mean warp markers?
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Wednesday, June 1, 2011 - 11:24pm

woops... sorry. I meant "Locator"

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Thursday, June 9, 2011 - 1:50pm
I prefer to run them in full tracks because it's less of a hassle while leading. Does anybody know how I can set up Ableton to send the click out of it's own channel?
Thursday, June 9, 2011 - 4:34pm
So the click can have its own channel in Ableton or on the house mixing board?
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Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - 11:32pm

yeah, the ableton click is labeled as "cue"... its' volume is controlled by the small headphone knob in the bottom right corner.

then, in the I/O section above your master fader, set the Cue to the output you want the ableton click to use.

Saturday, July 9, 2011 - 12:25am
I'm wondering if anyone on this forum might know an easy way to trigger a video with audio that is synced to a certain song. What equipment is necessary to do this effectively? Maybe all from a single laptop from the drummer for instance... Any suggestions are very appreciated. Thanks
Monday, July 11, 2011 - 7:43am

You should be able to use an existing midi controller just like with audio samples, you just need a video player that supports midi control. Anyone here know of one?

Monday, July 11, 2011 - 7:45am

I just had a thought about ProPresenter.  Looks like their PVP player supports midi control.




Saturday, July 23, 2011 - 7:36pm
With my team, we tend to run full tracks for fast songs, we don't really use those songs to "flow". I'm blessed in that I can't remember a time when the band got off a fully-arranged track (they've gotten off just a click loop though, which to me is funny). For more spontaneous songs, I've created a fully-arranged track, a chorus loop, and a bridge loop (I assume I would only want to redo those), and an ending "hit" (in case I do use the chorus/bridge parts so I can end the song with the loop elements). With the individual parts method, I find myself tapping around way too much, trying to tap the ability and a Line 6 X3Live, and that tends to be error-prone.
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Monday, July 25, 2011 - 9:20am

Ryan, you can run Video tracks in Ableton. There is a band called "The Museum" that I met a few days ago that runs all over their lyric videos through Ableton, as well as their tracks. Works well.

Another option would be to use ProVideo Player and their MIDI assignment control.

If you have questions, let me know!

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Saturday, July 30, 2011 - 7:25pm
I have created lyric videos with the loop and with a click track. We used it at our church and it worked great. I used some video files and full motion clips to accent the song visually as well. The loop and click was triggered by our sound guy and when it is setup in pro presenter you can start it off via midi or sound man in our case. I also used the video/loop files at a youth camp a couple weeks ago and was told that the visuals really helped some of the kids get into the worship better. For example one of the clips was a cross exploding through a brick wall in "no chains on me" the part where you shout the walls are coming down. One kid said it brought tears to his eyes because the visual made him not only hear but see what God was doing in his life. I believe video loops are a great next step in this way to present God to the lost and broken. Example of live use I did not make this one. This is my daughter at her "Public High School Talent Show" GRIN http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dFMBIzeOyqs#at=46 Example of one I made for church use Here for you by Chris Tomlin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J9vNt8uty0
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Friday, August 5, 2011 - 6:25am
Brilliant! Just tried that and it works beautifully. Question though...you're then limited to the locator arrangment for one song in "arrangement view", right? What if you want to do that with a whole set of songs? Maybe I'm missing something, but It would be cool to have a separate arrangement view for each "scene" in the session view. Ableton 9 anyone?
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Monday, August 22, 2011 - 1:00pm
We use full length tracks. We play with an orchestra and they can't follow if we jump around. We do some interesting things with ableton Live sometimes though. For special occasions when we want to have the choir covering the stage or something but don't want to lose the choir sound, we will record them and play it back through ableton live while they sing along. We'll make a separate track in Live for the choir audio so it can be mixed separately at front of house. We'll have a separate track for loops, and depending on the song a separate track for a children's choir, and and separate track for sampled orchestra parts. It's pretty amazing what you can do with it.
Monday, August 22, 2011 - 1:05pm
I typically split all of my parts out, place them in ableton and then have them automatically run to the next piece. I'll midi-assign each part on my ability controller though in the event we'd want to run through a chorus again or a bridge again (or in the event we get off). Trying to cue each section with my foot tended to take away from my ability to focus on leading worship. If we are doing a smaller set (we've done a few "remix" sets the last few months), I'll have everything cued up automatically.
Wednesday, September 5, 2012 - 3:01pm
I use full tracks. Doing different arrangements of songs is great but for us it works best if I have done the leg work to create the arrangement beforehand. It provides a "spontaneous" experience for the congregation but also prepares the team well because they already know where the arrangement is headed.
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Tuesday, September 25, 2012 - 2:13pm

Im finding myself using full arrangements more often than jumping around parts. I end up doing songs the same way most of the time anyways, and if I decide to change or add anything it's usually at the end of the song anyways when the band is out.

Thursday, October 18, 2012 - 8:28pm
I am planning on doing a track with our band for the first time and i am not familiar with Ableton much less alot of the midi stuff. I am going to run the split track all the way through so we will play the song just like the full track. I am a newbie to all this stuff and find the possibilities almost overwhelming yet exciting at the same time. Our first track will most likely be God Is Able. I like the track i found here and am planning on running it through an iPod split into left/right channels through direct boxes. Our PA is set up as Mono so i can send send 2 signals (headphone splitter) into each direct box and and pan them to their respective positions. Once that is done we will send the click to our Aviom and the other to mains and Aviom. If this goes over well we might get the church to invest in a laptop so we can expand the possibilities. Thanks for such an awesome place to share ideas to help make the worship experience be the best it can be.
Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 6:58pm

Is there a way to integrate prime with a foot pedal that will also execute "section jumping" on the fly? Say i wanna go back to a chorus vs following the arrangement and playing the bridge... I wanna execute that, hands free with my pedal instead of tapping the section on my iPad.
If so... which pedals are the best for this function, only?

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Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 11:48am

Hi Eric -
Yes, you can definitely do this with Looptimus. Just plug Looptimus into your iPad, then tap on "MIDI". Each section of a song can be mapped / assigned to a button on Looptimus.